Asbestos Licensing
Minutes
THE ASBESTOS LIAISON GROUP WEDNESDAY 31 OCTOBER 2001 AT 10.00AM
CONFERENCE ROOM, BELFORD HOUSE, 59 BELFORD ROAD, EDINBURGH
0 Present
1 Introductions, apologies and welcome
Stewart Campbell
2 Minutes of last meeting (27.6.2001) Stewart
Campbell
3 Matters arising from the minutes Stewart
Campbell to lead
4 ALU update: Jim Skilling
/ June Cairns/ Robert Hermanns
4.1 Supervisory
Licence Holders;
4.2 Exercise
to amend standard licence conditions;
4.3 Asbestos
Licence Assesment Guide;
4.4 Review
of advice to appointed doctors
5 Update on HSL project on improved methods
for clearance testing and
visual assessment of asbestos
removal operations Tracey Boyle
6 Draft proposals for revised L27/L28
ACoPs Dorothy Shaw
7 ARCA/ACAD Joint Technical Committee issues:
Mike Wilkes, ACAD, to lead
7.1 Asbestos
licence for scaffolders;
7.2 Trade
Associations' concerns re time limit for comments on proposed changes
to ACoPs L27
and L28;
7.3 HSE position
on individual accreditation for surveyors;
7.4 Training
organisations
8 Health Directorate update: Bill
Macdonald / Tracy Phillips
9 Date, Time, Venue of future meetings
(23 January 2002, Rose Court, London confirmed;
(April meeting provisionally
rescheduled for 21 May 2002 in Edinburgh - to be
confirmed at the meeting)
Present
| HSE | TAs/TUs |
|---|---|
| Stewart Campbell, Chair, T/Director, Scotland | Terry Jago, ARCA |
| Pam Waldron, T/Head of Health Unit, FOD | Peter Dolan, ARCA |
| Jim Skilling, ALU | Rob Blackburn, ARCA (ATaC) |
| June Cairns, ALU | Mike Wilkes, ACAD |
| Martin Gibson, Scotland Specialist Group | David Hayes, ACAD |
| Robbert Hermanns, Scotland Specialist Group | Jean Prentice, ACAD |
| Tracey Boyle, TD3 | Nigel Bryson, GMB |
| Tracy Phillips, HDC | |
| John Claxton, FOD Operations, Norwich | |
| Dorothy Shaw, FOD Operations, Preston | |
| Alison Ford, ALU (observer) |
Introduction, apologies, welcome etc
1.1 Mr Campbell welcomed everyone to the meeting and introduced Mrs Waldron, who had been assigned as temporary Head of Health Unit, whilst he was acting as HSE Director Scotland. It was likely that Mrs Waldron would chair the next meeting in January. He also introduced Mr Claxton, who had replaced Mr McKay as the ALPI representative on the group, Mrs Shaw, who would provide an update on the proposed revisions to L27 and L28 ACoPs and Mrs Ford from ALU, who was attending as an observer. Apologies for absence were tendered on behalf of Mr Macdonald, HSE, Mr Moore, GMB and Mr Tynan, NFDC. The meeting noted that Ms Marsden had left TGWU and that a replacement for her on the group had still to be arranged. Mr Campbell took the opportunity to formally record his thanks to Ms Marsden and Mr McKay for their contribution to the group during its first year.
Minutes of the meeting held on 27.6.01
2.1 The minutes of the meeting were agreed.
Matters Arising
3.1 (3.3) Mr Skilling reported that he had raised the issue of the difficulties
of having the original medical and face fit certificates on site at the ALPI
conference. He was pleased to report that ALPIs had empathised with this problem
and conceded that copies of the documents held on site would be acceptable.
However, because of the concern of documents being forged, inspectors would
vigorously chase up original documents if there were any doubts about the
validity of copies. Trade Association welcomed this response. They would encourage
their members to officially endorse site copies of documentation, which would
provide some reassurance for inspectors who examined them. Mr Bryson raised
the issue of a smart card system and undertook to put forward proposals.
Action: Mr Bryson
3.2 (3.5) Mr Wilkes said that he now had a report available for Dr Gibson
on the ice blasting process that his company had used to remove a "hairy
bond" of residual amosite which was heavily embedded into bitumen. The
work had been undertaken using positive pressure air fed breathing apparatus
and had produced fibre levels of 3f/ml. However, the process had been very
slow.
Item: discharged
3.3 (3.6) Mr Campbell reported that a copy of the final report of the Asbestos
Working Session had been sent to Mr Jago and Mr Bryson for comments by early
November. The French report on use of air line fed RPE had been translated
and was issued to members.
Item: discharged
3.4 (3.7) Mr Bryson reported that he had only just received information about
inappropriate protection for workers using asbestos substitute materials and
would send it to ALU, who would then forward it to the appropriate HSE section.
Action: Mr Bryson
3.5 (3.9) Dr Gibson had received some comments on clearance issues from ATaC,
which he had been able to feed into the internal HSE consultation exercise
on the revised L27/L28 ACoPs. Any other comments could be made as part of
the formal consultation process when the CD was issued later this year.
Item: discharged
3.6 (3.10) Mrs Phillips reported that discussions with UKAS on the matter
of "interim" clearance certificates was still ongoing and that the
whole issue needed to be bottomed out properly. Mr Dolan said that in the
meantime his company were regarding the hand written air clearance certificate
as the certificate of clearance.
Action: Mrs Phillips
3.7 (3.15) The issue of clarifying the role of a supervisory asbestos licence
holder was remitted to substantive agenda item 4(i).
Item: discharged
3.8 (3.16) The information from Mr Bryson about a water based product to
remove Artex had been received by HSE.
Item: discharged
3.9 (4.1.1) Mr Skilling had issued a draft ALG memo on scaffolding. Further
discussion on this matter was remitted to substantive agenda item 7(i).
Item: discharged
3.10 (4.1.2) Ms Cairns confirmed that details of companies with a 4th condition
restricting their work with asbestos to ancillary scaffolding activities had
been sent to TA/TU members. A revised list (28 licensed scaffolding companies)
was issued at the meeting.
Item: discharged
3.11 (4.1.2) Mr Skilling had discussed the notification requirement (Cape
doing scaffolding work at a power station in East Scotland where it was forseeable
that asbestos might be disturbed) raised at the last meeting with the HSE
officer concerned.
Item: discharged
3.12 (4.1.4) Mr Skilling reported that he had written to TAs with details
of suppliers of good quality PPE that was able to withstand wear and tear
from scaffolding harnesses etc.
Item: discharged
3.13 (4.2.1) Mr Skilling confirmed that he had written to the TAs about hiring
of employees and the requirements that would be placed on such licence holders.
Two companies had now been issued such licences. Mr Claxton referred to another
licensed company who only undertook agency work, which ALU would look into.
In response to Mr Jago's query, it was confirmed that licensed contractors
should only procure labour from other licence holders, either full licence
holders or "agencies" licensed to supply labour only. In reply to
Mr Blackburn's query, it was confirmed that it would not be permitted for
a supervisory licence holder to directly supervise work undertaken purely
by agency personnel. A draft ALG memo 9/01 on Hiring Employees was issued
and comments invited by 16 November 2001*.
Action: ALU/TAs/TU
*Post meeting note - ALG Memo 9/01 was finalised and issued on 21.12.01
3.14 (4.4.1/3) Ms Cairns thanked ACAD for the list of commercial laundries
they had supplied. This information had been passed to HSL, who were undertaking
the laundering project, on which there was nothing to report at present as
it was running a little behind schedule. She confirmed that inspectors had
been reminded that if towels were solely used in the clean end of the DCU
then they could be deemed as uncontaminated. It was agreed to keep the issue
under review.
Action: Ms Cairns
3.15 (5.2) Mr Skilling said that he had raised the matter of the client,
rather than the contractor, appointing the analyst with HSE's policy section
as requested. Mrs Phillips explained that this would require a change to the
regulations and with so many other changes to CAWR in the pipeline, the timing
was not right to take on board this further proposed amendment. The revised
ACoP L28 would include a strong recommendation for independence and whilst
consultees could comment on this issue in the formal consultation round, it
was not a matter on which their views would be actively sought. Mr Wilkes
registered his disappointment of this outcome as he regarded this issue as
being very important.
Item: discharged
3.16 (6.1.2) Mr Skilling reported that he had been unable to discuss the
issue of transporting asbestos waste in vans at the ALPI conference. He had
discussed the problem with the Environment Agency/SEPA, who confirmed that
this was an issue for HSE to deal with. Mr Skilling confirmed that it was
not HSE policy to undertake spot testing of vans and agreed that it was necessary
to determine HSE standards for those occasions when there was no skip on site
and then inform industry accordingly. He undertook to raise the issue with
ALPIs.
It was noted that EA/SEPA were opposed to asbestos waste being taken back
and temporarily stored at unlicensed depots.
Action: Mr Skilling
3.17 (6.2.3) Dr Gibson had approached HSL about information on moisture meters
and suppression levels. Over the next 3 months, they would examine literature
available from previous studies on this matter, then review the need for further
scientific testing as necessary. Mr Wilkes reported that he had met the Sales
Director from Protimeter, who was unaware that their moisture meters were
being used in this particular way. Mr Wilkes had been interested in the non
destructive radio frequency model but found that it wasn't that helpful, as
it was unable to detect beyond 10mm in depth, or less depending on the density
of the material. Whether the probe could be effectively used to measure moisture
levels of loose, bagged waste, where the density of the material was lower,
was yet to be assessed. He agreed to summarise the findings and forward these
to Dr Gibson.
Action: Mr Wilkes
3.18 (6.4.1) Mr Skilling confirmed that he had raised the issue of notification
requirements with inspectors, as requested.
Item discharged
3.19 (6.5.2) Mr Skilling had replied to Mr Jago about the inaccuracies contained
in Asbestos Essentials.
Item: discharged
3.20 (9.1.2) In response to comments from the TAs that they had insufficient
time to comment on the revisions to ACoPs L27 and L28, it was explained that
the July exercise was an attempt by HSE to involve TAs/TU members in the gestation
of the revised documents. Mrs Phillips reminded members that they would still
have the opportunity for further comment when the main consultation exercise
was underway later this year.
Item: discharged
ALU Update
4.1 Supervisory licence holders
4.1.1 Mr Skilling referred to the draft ALG Memo 8/01 on this topic. He explained
that the definition had been agreed with ALPIs and that they would follow
this line at licence assessments and at site visits. TA/TU members were invited
to submit comments to ALU on the draft by 30 November 2001*.
Action: TAs/TU
*Post meeting note - ALG Memo 8/01 was finalised and issued on 21.12.01
4.2 Exercise to amend standard licence conditions
4.2.1 Ms Cairns outlined the proposed changes to the standard licence conditions, which in summary were that:
- a copy of the licence must accompany the ASB5;
- the notification must specify the date of commencement of the work;
- the enforcing authority must be informed as soon as possible if the date of work commencement changes;
- there would be no requirement to notify short duration work (ie for work done under the Reg 3(2)(a) exemption of ASLIC ;
- the requirement to notify if the licensee hired out their employees (at operative level) to other licensees would be modified;
- clarification that the written method statement and equipment specification must be suitable and sufficient.
4.2.2 ALU intended to write to licence holders in December informing them
of the changes, which would take effect from 1 April 2002. There would be
no need for licences to be returned for individual amendment, as a separate
licence amendment document would be issued to each licence holder during a
staggered exercise between January and March 2002. As soon as HSE's solicitor
had cleared the proposed changes, members would be sent a copy of the revised
conditions.
Action: Ms Cairns
4.3 Asbestos Licence Assessment Guide (ALAG)
4.3.1 Ms Cairns updated the meeting on the progress with the ALAG, the aim of which was for licence assessments to be conducted fairly, consistently and transparently across FOD. The main changes to note were that in future, subject to competence, renewal applicants who had done no work would have their licences renewed for 1 year, and not 3 as at present (such licences would be prefixed with a "3"); and applicants conditionally refused a licence would in future have 4 months to remedy deficiencies and not 12 months as at present.
4.3.2 The intention was for the ALAG to be issued internally as an HSE circular,
and to be introduced in January 2002. It would be an "open" document
and as soon as it had been cleared through FOD's editorial section, ALG members
would be provided with a copy.
Action: Ms Cairns
4.4 Review of advice to appointed doctors
4.4.1 Dr Hermanns led a discussion on the above. The particular issues centred round:
- questioning the need for mandatory chest x-rays every 2 years as part of the appointed doctor's examination of asbestos workers;
- addressing how the requirement for chest x-rays fitted in with the Ionising Radiations (Medical Exposure) Regulations 2000, which required justification of the net benefit of each exposure; and
- consideration of whether the medical examination should allow appointed doctors to declare whether the worker was fit or unfit to work with asbestos and state this on the certificate (this doesn't happen at present).
4.4.2 An HSE Working Group had been established to look into all the health
surveillance guidance and the impact of the ionising radiation legislation.
It would meet for the first time in early December and members were invited
to let Dr Hermanns have comments on the issues in time for the first meeting.
Action: TAs/Mr Bryson
HSL Project on improved methods for clearance testing and visual assessment of asbestos operations
5.1 Mrs Boyle reported on the above project, the aims of which were to develop standardised methods for visual inspections of enclosures; standardised methods of disturbance methods during clearance air sampling; and guidance on the clearance process.
5.2 She explained that the main findings and recommendations in the report
(see separate appendix to the minutes) had
informed the proposed changes to clearance procedures in the revised L28 ACoP,
which would be summarised later in the meeting and that when members considered
the draft proposals, it was important to bear this in mind. Ms Prentice expressed
concern about the recommendation to use a standard method of dust disturbance
(ie brushes and brooms) as she felt that this method would not be suitable
for all surfaces.
Item: discharged
Draft Proposals for revised L27/L28 ACoPs
6.1 Mrs Shaw summarised the proposed changes to the above ACoPs. The presentation was well received and members appreciated having the opportunity to hear about the proposals and the background to them, first hand. Consultees would also be invited to comment on various options for the presentational layout of the ACoPs. Ms Prentice noted that the old style of ACoP had been better, as information and processes were presented in a more logical way, making it easier for the reader to follow.
6.2 The CD on the L27/L28 changes was due to be issued in December* at which time members would have the opportunity to comment fully as part of the formal consultation process.
*Post meeting note - the CD is now likely for issue in late January/early
February 2002.
Item: discharged
ARCA/ACAD Joint Technical Committee Issues
7.1 Asbestos licence for scaffolders
7.1.1 Mr Wilkes reported that in view of the recent meeting that had taken place between ALU and the National Scaffolding and Access Confederation (NASC) the Joint Technical Committee had curtailed their discussion on this topic. At the NASC meeting a number of issues had arisen, which ALU had agreed to pursue. He stated that the Trade Associations had both felt that draft ALG Memo 7/01 had confused the issue a little and that paragraph 2 of annex 1 of the memo was not consistent with L11, the licensing guide.
7.1.2 Mr Skilling confirmed that he would be writing to NASC on receipt of
comments from Solicitors Office and that the draft ALG memo would be revised
as necessary and reissued.
Action: Mr Skilling
7.2 Consultation with Trade Associations
7.2.1 Mr Wilkes requested that the Trade Associations be allowed to circulate draft ALG memos to their Technical Committees for comment, in order for them to provide a better informed response.
7.2.2 Mr Skilling agreed to this request but asked members to bear in mind that occasionally time scales for response might be tight and that this could make wider consultation more difficult.
7.3 Personnel certification and accreditation schemes for surveyors
7.3.1 Mr Wilkes asked whether HSE supported the BIOH personnel certification scheme. Trade Associations were concerned that clients would assume that a surveyor, who had a P402 certificate was "accredited" (ie they would have personnel certification) whereas this only formed a part of the accreditation process.
7.3.2 Mrs Phillips said that HSE actively supported both schemes viz personnel certification and company accreditation. BIOH had not yet applied to UKAS to become a certifying body. Until they did this their personnel certification scheme could not be recognised.
7.3.3 Mr Jago referred to a letter he had received from UKAS, which stated
that they needed up front money to develop a scheme before any organisation
could apply to become a certifying body in respect of asbestos surveying.
UKAS were suggesting that financial sponsors, possibly including HSE, would
be needed. Mrs Phillips was not aware that this was the line UKAS were taking
and agreed to progress the matter directly with them on receipt of a copy
of the letter.
Action: Mr Jago/Mrs Phillips
7.4.1 Mr Jago referred to a recent incident whereby two asbestos operatives alleged they had undergone ARCA training when in fact their training certificates had been forged. HSE had been able to contact ARCA and quickly establish the validity of their claims. As a result, the licensed contractor and the agency supplying the labour had been served prohibition notices. As far as he was aware, no action had been taken against the individuals, which he queried. He pointed out that given the number of training providers and the variance in standards amongst them, there needed to be a scheme to review them and possibly authorise them to operate.
7.4.2 Mr Skilling was aware of the specific incident mentioned and confirmed that whilst no action had yet been taken against the individuals concerned, this might still occur. He reminded members that ALU had no influence over operational matters.
7.4.3 Turning to the issue of training organisations, Mr Skilling confirmed that he was in the process of developing a project, the aim of which would be to standardise the content and format of training. He would update ALG on progress, in due course.
Health Directorate Update
8.1 Duty to manage
8.1.1 Mrs Phillips reported that HSC had agreed in principle to the inclusion of domestic rented properties being brought into the scope of the regulations but had asked for the issue to be decoupled so that the duty for non domestic premises could be brought in. The domestic issue would therefore be pursued separately with DTLR. The CD, which was due to be issued on 23 November or earlier, included revised proposals for the duty holder; an update on the position regarding the domestic sector (although it was noted that common parts of domestic properties were still included); the new proposal requiring accreditation for those who undertook analysis of bulk samples; the revised cost benefit analysis; and the revised ACoP to support the duty to manage.
8.1.2 There would be a 3 month consultation period, ending in late February
2002. It was hoped the regulations would be signed in June 2002 with an 18
months lead in period to allow sufficient time for duty holders to comply.
Discussions still had to take place with FOD regarding enforcement, although
it was expected that this would follow the existing HSC policy. The BOHS road
shows had shown that awareness levels were low. Mr Bryson thought that GMB
might be able to fund additional awareness raising, which Mrs Phillips would
pursue with him direct.
Action: Mrs Phillips
8.2 Revised L27 and L28 ACoPs
8.2.1 Mrs Phillips confirmed that the revised ACoPs would be subject to a separate consultation exercise. As such a CD would be published in late December*, with a 3 month consultation period.
*Post meeting note - the CD is now likely for issue in late January/early February 2002.
Date, Time, Venue of future meetings
9.1 The dates etc of meetings were confirmed as follows:
- 10.00am, 23 January 2002, Rose Court, London ;
- 10.00am, 21 May 2002, Belford House, Edinburgh;
- 10.00am, 24 September 2002, Rose Court, London
Action: Ms Cairns
Appendix
HSL Project: Improved Methods for Clearance Testing and
Visual Assessment of
Asbestos Operations
1 The research project was carried out by the Health and Safety Laboratory (HSL). It started up in 1998 and the main aims were to develop a standardised method for visual inspections of enclosures, to develop a standardised method for disturbance during clearance air sampling and to develop guidance on the clearance process.
2 The stages of the project included:
- laboratory-based work investigating surface sampling techniques;
- laboratory-based work investigating disturbance methods and the resuspension of asbestos fibres;
- field trials of surface sampling techniques and disturbance methods;
- field observations of visual assessment and clearance air monitoring by site analysts; and
- field observations of enclosure removal and post clearance inspections.
3 Main findings:
- of the surface sampling techniques investigated, forensic tape was the most versatile over a range of surfaces;
- low angle of incidence torch beam most practical;
- wipe tests using a white medium such as medi-wipes were sensitive enough to detect surface contamination that would result in a failed air test;
- the leaf blower was the most effective means of resuspending settled asbestos fibres, and that fibres resuspended by leaf blowers remained suspended in the air for longer before settling out;
- brushing surfaces was the next most effective method of resuspending settled fibres;
- fibres resuspended by leaf blowers — 40% settled out after 60 mins;
- fibres resuspended by brushing — 90% settled out after 90 mins;
- the most popular technique used for dust disturbance in the field was wafting an inflated plastic bag around;
- analysts often carrying out remedial cleaning rather than a visual inspection;
- enclosures often damp or wet during visual inspections;
- PVA often sprayed around liberally prior to visual inspection taking place;
- floors mostly uncovered, even if difficult to clean eg concrete;
- poor and ineffective dust disturbance;
- consistent bias in that HSL air sampling results higher than analysts;
- when separate air sampling carried out only one site passed air tests and this site was wet due to an underground spring;
- personal exposures of 0.1f/ml during dismantling of enclosures;
- FFP2 masks if any and often removed for a cigarette in enclosure;
- 2 of the 3 sites inspected following removal of the enclosure had visible debris;
- remaining site — air test results of 0.08f/ml'
- no effective pre or post cleaning.
Main recommendations
1 HSE documents should be updated and more consistent.
2 More attention required to detection and cleanup of fine dust.
3 Enclosure should be dry.
4 Clearance certificate should state whether enclosure wet or dry.
5 There should be a standard method of dust disturbance.
6 The time taken for dust disturbance should vary with the size of the enclosure.
7 Surfaces should be pre-cleaned prior to erection of the enclosure.
8 The floor and other flat surfaces should be covered prior to removal work taking place.
9 Analysts should be independent of the contractor.
TRACEY BOYLE
TD 3
October 2001
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